The next is the transcript of the interview with Financial institution of America Chairman and CEO Brian Moynihan that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Dec. 21, 2025. Editor’s word: This interview was filmed on Dec. 17, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, thanks for making time.
BANK OF AMERICA CEO BRIAN MOYNIHAN: It is nice to be right here. Good to see you once more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I need to speak to you concerning the state of the economic system, as a result of our CBS polling is exhibiting that probably the most Individuals requested this query say their vacation gadgets are arduous to afford.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah.
BRENNAN: They’re pulling again as a result of incomes are usually not maintaining with inflation. But it surely’s a really completely different story. Whenever you have a look at the higher earnings brackets, I do know you see knowledge of precise transactions. Are individuals doing what they inform us they’re doing?
MOYNIHAN: So- so we not solely see it within the combination, we additionally see it in items. And so in the event you look within the combination, the quantity spent by the Thanksgiving weekend, on you understand, Black Friday and Cyber Monday by all of the month of November and the primary a part of December, it’s- it is up four- 4 and 1 / 4, 4 and a half p.c versus final 12 months’s November. And so it is rising. After which in the event you look by terciles, three buckets of earnings ranges, it is clear the individuals within the backside earnings stage, at decrease earnings ranges are spending a bit of quicker development price, however nonetheless rising and within the center and higher quicker. So, you understand, what they’re telling you is, what they really feel, what they’re really seeing, is spending is admittedly stable, fairly stable heading into the top of the 12 months, and it has been form of going alongside like that every one of December. Now, wages have grown, however inflation bothers individuals. Jobs are you understand, the unemployment price’s very low, but it surely’s been rising. So there’s loads of dialogue in there. On the finish of day, persons are spending they’ve good credit score high quality. They’re employed, and wait- we will see wages rising in as individuals’s paychecks are available at a 3% clip. So it is a- it is fairly stable proper now.
BRENNAN: Is that also, although stilted in direction of the higher earnings brackets? Is it that Ok formed economic system some individuals speak about–
MOYNIHAN Our group places the- seems at this. Sure, it the expansion price distinction is greater, however all of- all of the third, a 3rd, a 3rd, all three thirds are rising.
BRENNAN: And also you assume that may proceed?
MOYNIHAN: That is been steady. And so that is the query. They develop at completely different charges, however they’re all rising, which all means they’re placing more cash within the economic system than they did this time final 12 months.
BRENNAN: Why do you assume individuals have sentiment that is low however spending that is greater?
MOYNIHAN: It is- you hear about it, you have talked about it. It is this query of affordability and costs and attempting to determine how that- as a result of we had a really, a really unusual course of from 20 by now, we had COVID lockdown, then we had all of the stimulus, and we had excessive inflation, after which we had wages caught as much as it. And in the event you draw a line and say, Here is wages and here is spending and here is value development, it’s- they keep in sync throughout a protracted time frame, however they went at completely different occasions, and they also noticed the inflation and 20 and 23 and 24 that that was on their minds, and so they need to see it subsist, and it will take a short while to subsist. However as you go into 26 having come by 25 the incremental hit of that may be decrease. And even when the Fed seems at they assume inflation retains working its means down. But it surely’s- it is what individuals really feel, and you’ll’t low cost that. And it is also at sure job classes and stuff, there’s been extra dislocation, and that is on account of a few of the authorities downsizing and a few of the different issues happening. However, but it surely’s, it isn’t widespread at 4, you understand, 4.6% unemployment within the final quantity they publish, that is nonetheless in the- in our enterprise careers, is definitely a really low unemployment price, frankly,
BRENNAN: And what do you see then as the largest danger to the economic system?
MOYNIHAN Effectively, while you look out forward, it is, it is it is the query wars is one other factor that might actually shake up the markets. However the true query is- is- will the patron preserve spending within the US? We now have the US economic system rising about 2.4% subsequent 12 months. We now have in- however that is dependent upon a client that stays engaged. If the patron turns into much less engaged as we transfer into 20- from 25 into 26 and slows down their spending. That is going to decelerate the economic system. In order that’s a danger. You simply do not see it wherever now. The second danger is wars and different issues that might go on that might create shocks to the market. And you understand, then there’s the standard issues, cyber occasions and issues like that. However the true danger is, will the Individuals, if the businesses of America make use of individuals and pay them a bit of bit extra, they may spend an economic system within the US might be high quality, after which you have got these investments within the stimulus from the uh, the tax act, you have got the stimulus from a few of the investments coming in which might be preserve kicking in. And that is why our group went from one and a half p.c, in all probability 4 months in the past, to 2 and a half p.c, 2.4% for 26 now, yeah.
BRENNAN: Okay, so prior to now 12 months, commerce and tariffs, there have been loads of shocks to the system. It was an enormous concern, however Financial institution of America now tasks President Trump’s technique is considered one of de escalation, not escalation. Does that imply you see this commerce struggle with China cooling off?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, I feel- in the event you return to the place we have been in April, there was loads of lack of expertise about the place this may find yourself, and that affected small businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock–
MOYNIHAN: –and medium measurement businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock.
MOYNIHAN: They have been shocked.
BRENNAN: There was shock on liberation day.
MOYNIHAN: The sheer measurement, the quantity, the {dollars}, throughout the board, et cetera. What you say now, as occasions moved on, it is form of a 15% on one facet, after which the next quantity primarily based on individuals who will not commit to buy from the US, or will not decide to decreasing their non tariff obstacles and issues like that. And so the query, once I speak to international governments and so they ask you the query about what’s this all mean–or international CEOs–you say, look, you bought a selection. You will be right here or be right here. You simply need to make the selection. You are going to be- drive extra in direction of America, and you’ll come down to fifteen% to go from a ten% throughout the board, to fifteen% for the broad base of nations, not a huge effect. And that is the place our group says it is beginning to- it is beginning to de escalate, and that you just’re beginning to see the decision of the discussions into 15% right here 17 completely different numbers. Whenever you put China, China’s a special query, as a result of the nationwide safety pursuits, the uncommon earth minerals, the magnets, batteries, simply AI, all that stuff. It is a very completely different case. And I feel additionally between Mexico and China, the USMCA, which must be redone, can be a special case. However broadly on the earth, you possibly can see form of the top level right here and now they’ve simply bought to (INAUDIBLE)- it is started working by the system.
BRENNAN: How a lot of a toll has that taken on small companies? I perceive B of A is the most important small enterprise lender.
MOYNIHAN: So we are the largest small enterprise lender. If we have been sitting right here within the second quarter of this 12 months, it was an enormous toll. They have been very- as a result of charges have gone up, and that prices them more cash as a result of they borrow on revolving traces of credit score. In different phrases, they borrow a floating price, after which the tariffs got here in and triggered them I am undecided I can get the products at what value and the way can I commit? However as you went by the 12 months, charges got here down a bit of bit, in order that they’re extra their problem proper now could be, can I get the labor I have to do, to bid the contracts, to do the work I am doing? As a result of the immigration insurance policies have not settled in but, and that is inflicting individuals concern. It isn’t that they agree with them or are disagreeing. They simply have to have the reply, and that is what they’re in search of. So in the event you assume throughout 4 coverage regimes, tax-trade-tariff, immigration, after which finally, deregulation. You’ve got seen a decision of loads of them, however I feel the subsequent one for small enterprise, what they inform us is labor availability. How they get there may be, I want individuals to do that work, and I should be reliable. They’re right here. So give me a algorithm and I am going to go play with them. However I should be clarified what the foundations are.
BRENNAN: The labor shortage problem, individuals simply cannot discover folks–
MOYNIHAN: The- dependability and people who find themselves in all probability not something to do with what the insurance policies are about feel- really feel otherwise, and that is if they do not really feel they’ll go to work, if they do not really feel they’ll do issues that that simply has to resolve. And small companies are typically most impacted as a result of they do not have our fantastic analysis group to determine all of it out and speak and speak to the massive shoppers who produce other groups to do it, and that is trickier. So I feel, and by the way in which, the administration understands that they are engaged on it, they’re attempting to determine the right way to get that half put collectively so it is clear what the insurance policies might be and will not be, in order that, or aren’t, or, extra importantly, aren’t, actually what the those that the in poor health settled down, however that that problem of labor was a 23 problem after the good resignation disappeared from small, medium sized companies got here again in actually due to the place, the place we’re from this summer time on.
BRENNAN: One of many different huge elements, it appears within the jobs market, is that this query of synthetic intelligence. How a lot is B of A counting on AI to do issues like predict mortgage defaults or determine dangers?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, so I feel the way in which that the patron would really feel AI at Financial institution of America is Erica. So in the event you go on our cellular app- you there is a bot there. It is an agent. It has been there for a few years. It does 2 million buyer interfaces a day. So it isn’t small. 20 million clients actively use it. It will probably reply 700 questions. In order that’s actual and been happening. And in order that’s the way in which a buyer would really feel it. Should you’re a company buyer, you’d really feel with Erica’s embed in our money pro- so your portal you go to as an organization to make funds or FX transactions, and also you need to ask questions, Erica is there. In order that’s- that you just’re asking about one thing completely different. We now have used fashions for years about predicting defaults. So we do stress testing. These are all fashions to foretell the result. We now have loss given defaults, default predictions. That is all there. Can these assist us make us extra knowledgeable? Sure, can they assist several types of workers function quicker? Completely. So we’re deploying throughout all our teammates AI, have entry to AI instruments. The- there are specialised AI instruments in sure areas, however we expect the best finest use close to time period is both discrete course of software or in serving to us construct clever to excessive ranges. However to interface to a buyer, you must have your knowledge proper. You need to have the controls proper, as a result of you possibly can’t give the shopper the flawed reply, whether or not it is, I will approve your mortgage or not, and that is why this might be a little- take a bit of extra care to implement in buyer going through enterprise with belief, which is what monetary providers is.
BRENNAN: Effectively, I ask it as a result of there’s that query of what number of human jobs get changed, proper? And while you have a look at that current Enterprise Roundtable Survey of CEOs, they predict that whereas there may be spending on know-how and AI, they don’t seem to be taking a look at hiring going up. They see it really lowering.
MOYNIHAN: So, so there is a couple issues that’s what’s on individuals’s minds, and that is after we speak to our teammates. We’re saying, Hey, we will carry AI and make it extra environment friendly, after which we bought to supply extra exercise. And you do not have to fret. Should you seize AI and use it in your each day work, that is an awesome factor. And so it isn’t a menace to their jobs. However then again, I feel individuals are actually assuming they will get advantages, and we’ll see in the event that they get these advantages. However you understand, in the event you assume from 1969 to 2019, it was 50 years, loads of know-how got here in America employs twice as many individuals in 2019 as we did in 1969. So will this wind up? I do not know, and no person actually is aware of for certain, as a result of we have not ever had it. However then again, there is a functionality in our firm. The business bankers are calling on business clients. In the event that they get 10% extra environment friendly, we could not add so much to develop, however doesn’t suggest we’re gonna take away and get the efficiency- we need to develop. We need to drive extra development. So the AI might be spent- the efficiencies from AI might be spent to continue to grow the corporate, I feel.
BRENNAN: So, it is an issue for the brand new faculty grad, but it surely’s not essentially a layoff that you just’re making, basically.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, properly, we simply employed 2000 plus new faculty grads in July, so it’s- we did not change the scale of class- my recommendation to these youngsters, in the event you ask them in the event that they’re nervous about, they are saying they’re nervous about- these are youngsters that we rent, 200,000 functions, we rent 2000 individuals. They got here into our firm. Should you ask them, in the event that they’re scared, they are saying they’re. And I perceive that. However I- says, harness it, and also you should not. It’s going to be your world forward of you.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you concerning the mortgage enterprise. You’ve got bought an enormous one. The Fed says exercise within the housing sector is weak. What do you see is behind that hesitation?
MOYNIHAN: There are two elements to it. One is the speed construction is greater, so it is simply slowed down the exercise. So if persons are going to promote a home to maneuver as much as a much bigger home or one thing, the price of debt goes to go up. In order that’s slowing down that exercise. The second is constructing. And there is housing quantity shortages everywhere in the nation. Some single- you may have single household, multi small multi flooring models, issues like that. Or much more, larger multi household, main cities, however there is a common housing scarcity, as a result of for thus a few years it has been arduous to get housing permitted, and so the recommendation I give to anyone is you are in all probability not going to see the ten 12 months charges go down. Our teammates assume the Fed funds price will get the low of three and however the tenure price stays between 4 and 4 and a half, which suggests the mortgage price will not be so much completely different than this as we speak, however in the event you enhance provide, you will preserve costs flat, and wages will develop by it. And also you’re beginning to see costs have flattened out in lots of locations. So you bought to construct provide, and you bought to get allowing completed, and you bought to do this might be the answer. Transferring mortgage charges 50 foundation factors is not going to be an enormous change. When you have got a bunch of individuals 3% mortgage charges, that is not going to be modified. And by the way in which, for the American economic system, we don’t need to have an economic system that has to have that low price construction once more, as a result of which means we’re not rising, we’re not profitable, and we’re in all probability offsetting a recession. So we should not be cheering for 3% mortgage charges. It was an anomaly that occurred, and now we bought to get again to regular.
BRENNAN: Effectively, you do hear the administration discuss charges coming down is an effective factor? You are simply saying it isn’t a easy, fast repair.
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, for the housing market, as a result of there’s 60 million- there’s 130 odd million households in America, half of them haven’t got a mortgage. That is this entire lock in query shouldn’t be even a related query. They lease, and so you bought to bring- rental affordability is a query. Or they personal outright, and that is a special query. They inherit a home, you understand, third era, or one thing like that. So it is a very advanced factor, however simplistic- simplistically, if mortgage charges come down, individuals will pay extra. The fact is, if costs come down, individuals have extra affordability on that facet. So I feel it really works itself by. However we had a really completely different price setting for lots of years, and that’s- that is arduous for individuals to consider, as a result of individuals below the age of 40, 2,3, 4, no, weren’t out working in an setting the place we had a 3% Fed funds price, which is extra the norm than not.
BRENNAN: So let me ask you about Fannie and Freddie. Taxpayers took a stake in the course of the monetary disaster in these mortgage lenders. The Treasury Secretary stated that they’re anticipated to return to the general public market within the subsequent 12 months, with the federal government promoting a portion of that stake. Does Financial institution of America have a job in that transaction? However- however for shoppers, is that really going to push up the price of proudly owning a house?
MOYNIHAN: I do not discuss shopper relationships, however look, it will not in the event that they preserve the assure. And- and the administration is aware of that, Secretary Bessent is aware of it that assure helps preserve that mortgage price down, but additionally offers a 30 12 months mortgage. As a result of now, while you make a mortgage mortgage and not using a authorities assure for a borrower who could also be on the qualification ranges, there are extra advantageous to borrow. You make a choice for the subsequent 30 years that the borrower goes to be okay, or loads of years. In order that assure is important to U.S. getting fastened price mortgages and having loads of mortgage availability, after which they’ve run the issues fairly accountable since monetary disaster. Down funds have stayed substantial. So the credit score high quality of present portfolios is fairly good. And so they cannot lose that, as a result of that was the rationale. One of many the reason why we had the monetary disaster was the low down funds and many mortgage loans with zero fairness in them. And as quickly as costs on homes got here down, the entire thing exploded, and all America was affected. So I feel they’re very aware all that, and I feel- however they’re important of the U.S. housing system. They at all times have been. They’re an awesome firm. They are a iconic firm for the U.S., frankly, now to place them collectively and are working properly.
BRENNAN: So the president has introduced that he needs all these sweeping adjustments to the Federal Reserve. Chair Powell is ready to retire from the job in Might. For somebody at house, how a lot does that job matter to the patron. How do you clarify that?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, it is one of many fascinating issues. So the President’s going to nominate a brand new chair of the Federal Reserve. Presidents throughout- for the reason that Federal Reserve, 100 plus years in the past, was based, have completed that, it isn’t new. He is bought nice candidates. He’ll appoint any individual, and we’ll assist that candidate get the knowledge to achieve success, and so we’ll see what he does. However that is his prerogative. You understand, that is he ought to do it. There’s- my thoughts, there’s an excessive amount of fascination with the Fed. We’re not- we’re a country- we’re a rustic that is pushed by the non-public sector, by what individuals do, and within the companies and the businesses, small firms and huge firms, medium sized firms, and entrepreneurs and medical doctors and lawyer- all these individuals drive our economic system. The concept we’re like hanging on the thread by the Fed transferring charges 25 foundation factors, it appears to me we have gotten out of whack. And so we bought to get- for the reason that monetary disaster, the Fed had an enormous function in stabilizing the economic system. That is what they’re alleged to do. That went away variety of years in the past. It got here again a bit of bit in COVID. They are a lender of final resort. They’re there to stabilize markets and price- however different internet you should not know they exist fairly frankly–
BRENNAN: –So you do not fear about all this, you understand, handwringing of political interference with the Fed, as soon as that new place is–
MOYNIHAN: –The market is a- will punish individuals if we do not have an impartial Fed. And everyone is aware of that.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Trump accounts. They’re attempting to construct generational wealth. The administration says by having these rich donors, state governments, employers put cash in these tax benefit accounts for youths as an addition to the federal authorities placing some cash into a few of them, are you going to have a job in that program? And what do you assume extra broadly about increasing the variety of individuals placing cash within the inventory market, in these index funds.
MOYNIHAN: So I feel primary, if- at our firm beginning 2017 we- after the tax act from that 12 months, loads of firms gave their workers $1,000 bonus. We began doing one thing else the subsequent 12 months, which we saved going and I’ve gone since. So our 200,000 plus workers yearly get an award of inventory throughout the entire board, and that is constructed as much as be s–
BRENNAN: –Many companies try this, restricted inventory.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, but it surely’s gone on for now. Numerous them did it as soon as, did not do it, however only a few have completed it that a lot. And that is like $6 billion of inventory have gone into these workers. And so I imagine in inventory possession by everyone. I imagine in holding that inventory and appreciating. And so we imagine in that, we’ve a 401k, that folks can make investments, we’ve 7% match and all that stuff. These accounts, I feel, are additionally good. The query is, you understand, the dad and mom need to make the contributions, and the federal government will put some cash in, however the broader merchandise out there for fogeys, it will be good to avoid wasting. However I feel we shouldn’t- we should always do that, however we even have to recollect monetary schooling. As a result of if you may get an schooling typically, in abilities coaching, as a result of if any individual may earn $10,000 extra a 12 months than they’d in any other case earn, or they’ll stability their funds and be money movement constructive to $10,000. That goes on for his or her, you understand, from their first job, 21,18, all through 65 that’s some huge cash. The place this for 18 years, might be some huge cash, but it surely’ll be- it will cease the place that may go on ceaselessly. So we want this kind of work. And I expose the fairness markets underinvesting in America and all these issues, very low price the place the index funds doesn- it had foundation factors the place they have been saying that is all the appropriate approach to do it. By the way in which, it was again to privatization, Social Safety in these days and that stuff.
BRENNAN: Is that this principally a means to do this? I imply, each child instantly has a inventory market funding.
MOYNIHAN: It’s going to- I imply, we’ll need to see. You and I will not be round 50 years, 60 years from now, possibly you can be, I will not be round 60 years from now to consider it. But it surely- you know- it will, it will try this. However fairness funding by individuals holding that and having have to carry it to allow them to’t churn it and promote it. And that is, that is factor. So I feel it is an awesome product. I feel it is fantastic that persons are stepping up and contributing to it. All of us have to consider an employer, as a result of we’ve that inventory program, which is a number of thousand {dollars} to workers. And, you understand, we’ve our 401k match. And if we do that, how does that work? And stuff like that. However- and in the event you do it for youths, what do you do for the remainder of individuals? You could have this query that not everyone in our firm has youngsters. And so if I put the match in for- if I put the cash for individuals with youngsters, what I do with individuals with out youngsters? So there’s a bit of extra advanced, but it surely’s factor, and I feel we’ll determine the right way to take part and make it occur.
BRENNAN: So again in August, after we spoke, you talked about these allegations of banks enjoying politics and discriminating in opposition to conservatives. You pushed again fairly arduous in that second. However earlier this month, the Trump administration launched preliminary findings about banks, together with Financial institution of America. It is a six web page report. There’s reference to your environmental and sustainability-related choices that have been made in the course of the Biden administration. Do you’re feeling you must undo these? Have you ever undone them?
MOYNIHAN: Numerous them have been- have been undone or made extra exact as a result of the interpretation wasn’t really what went on. So in the event you learn the web site, you may say, oh, they’re doing this. And the truth was that is not what was going- by no means was supposed. And so we do not debank anyone for spiritual or political causes. We made the insurance policies clear so individuals may see it. We welcome all of the enter from the banking regulators and others. And we’ll, we’ll have a look at anyone who, who feels we- imagine me, they- individuals have thought they have been closed for causes that they could not perceive. We have checked out that in all probability, you understand, as a result of clients can come to our firm and say, ‘you have closed my account, why?’ And we will inform them. However I feel persons are forgetting the rationale why loads of this went on was reputational danger was an evaluation course of that went on, and it was actual. And, and imagine me, you understand, individuals would learn the paper and stated, you understand, Jane Smith, John Smith, you are doing enterprise with them. They did one thing flawed. You have to be a fail as an organization, and subsequently we will write you up.
BRENNAN: That was in the course of the Biden administration that sort of–
MOYNIHAN: –even–
BRENNAN: –social strain you are saying–
MOYNIHAN: –20 years ago–
BRENNAN: 20 years in the past, okay–
MOYNIHAN: It has been happening for a very long time. It simply saved build up, after which it is after which the second factor is that, that for AML and KYC points, we needed to shut accounts. And so the extent of a transaction was set in 1972 at 10,000 and you’ve got two issues, if it goes above that, you must pour it down, if it goes a number of ones near that. That hasn’t been modified since 1972. That quantity could be 80,000 as we speak, so what we thought was materials then–
BRENNAN: –in phrases of, like, suspicious transactions.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, and so and so. There’s loads of overwork right here that we’re attempting to- in the event that they get these laws proper, that might be very useful. So there’s form of the ESG facet of it, these issues I feel loads of us fastened to verify they’re primarily based on danger and actual info and stuff. As a result of this was happening far earlier than the brand new administration got here in, frankly, in states and different locations. There may be the query of getting the AML, KYC letter after which the popularity danger, which to the credit score of the present federal bankers, they’ve taken that off the desk.
BRENNAN: as a result of there actually aren’t that many factors of settlement lately between Wall Road and the White Home. However this problem the president himself actually dug into and he stated that Financial institution of America declined to open new accounts for him and his household after his first time period in workplace. Do you assume you have patched issues up? I imply, it’s- are you aware what he is speaking about?
MOYNIHAN: We- I would not discuss shopper relationships with anyone, however we–
BRENNAN: He stated it on tv, about you.
MOYNIHAN: I do know that. Folks- if I had a nickel for all the things everyone stated about me on tv it- you understand, I would be wealthy. So on the finish of day, we financial institution everyone. We now have 125,000 spiritual organizations. We now have 70 million shoppers. We now have tens of thou- we’ve the largest small enterprise lender within the nation interval and cease. You understand? And so, you understand, the concept we toss individuals out, it is, it is simply not true. So I will not get into a person buyer and their, and their factors of view. However look, a few of these insurance policies, we have been pushed to locations that we have been in a position to carry again to the middle and America ought to be ok with that.
BRENNAN: And also you assume the issues are copacetic now. You set this behind you with the White Home?
MOYNIHAN: Sure.
BRENNAN: Okay, I am getting a wrap over right here on time. So thanks for making time for us.
MOYNIHAN: Blissful Holidays, thanks.
BRENNAN: Blissful Holidays to you.
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